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Post by Kohath on Jun 13, 2016 3:25:01 GMT -5
Snipped out of request
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Post by Varangian on Jun 13, 2016 3:49:22 GMT -5
The man is like an onion
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Post by CreamPie on Jun 13, 2016 13:05:08 GMT -5
I agree with him! As Americans, we have let fear drive our decisions in the recent years. After 9/11 we volunteered to give up our rights to privacy and lawful treatment. Now we are debating over limiting our right for personal protection.
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Post by Dante on Jun 14, 2016 4:58:46 GMT -5
l o l.
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Post by Azrael on Jun 14, 2016 5:04:27 GMT -5
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Post by Dante on Jun 14, 2016 5:23:26 GMT -5
Statistics for Gun Violence (2016)2016Total Number of Incidents: 23'506 Number of Deaths: 6'030 Mass Shootings: 138 Of those number of incidents (23'506): Defensive Use: 725 (the reason you think it's ok to own a gun) You can read the rest of those stats, and the previous years if you want. 138 mass shootings is not normal. In Europe I've only heard about Christine Grimmie and the 49 killed in Orlando. In the the time following that accident and the time at which I'm looking at the stats, there's been roughly ~50 others killed in gun-related incidents. That is not normal.
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Post by Varangian on Jun 14, 2016 8:08:50 GMT -5
Background checks, licenses, gun training and psychological evaluation - maybe that's what you need to get guns in control.
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Post by Azrael on Jun 14, 2016 13:33:36 GMT -5
Background checks, licenses, gun training and psychological evaluation - maybe that's what you need to get guns in control. we have those (besides evaluations) that being said there are loopholes that need to be closed. the point of the status was to say that its a much bigger problem than just gun laws. the mental health system and terror watch in the US is absolutely horrible. the guy in Orlando was being watched/interviewed by the fbi but they didnt for some unknown fucking reason didnt put it in the background information im not sure why kohath posted my status here and id ask that he doesnt do this sort of thing again
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Post by Dante on Jun 14, 2016 14:33:18 GMT -5
You can point fingers at how your health service handles mental health and the counterterrorism organizations in America, but it all comes down to the easy access to guns. No normal civilian needs access to military-grade weaponry unless they have a valid reason. I understand that home protection is a huge reason for many people for owning a firearm, but realistically, you're incredibly unlikely to experience a life/death home invasion situation - and in the case in which your home is invaded, you don't need a AR-15 type rifle to defend yourself.
The number of AR-15's in circulation in America exceeds the population of Northern Ireland.
It all comes down to the availability of firearms. If people can't access these firearms legally, sure they'll find a way to get them illegally, but at least they can't head over to their neighbor's house and nick their automatic rifle from the gun cabinet and dandy off to the nearest nursery and mow down a bunch of children.
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Post by Azrael on Jun 14, 2016 14:43:34 GMT -5
You can point fingers at how your health service handles mental health and the counterterrorism organizations in America, but it all comes down to the easy access to guns. No normal civilian needs access to military-grade weaponry unless they have a valid reason. I understand that home protection is a huge reason for many people for owning a firearm, but realistically, you're incredibly unlikely to experience a life/death home invasion situation - and in the case in which your home is invaded, you don't need a AR-15 type rifle to defend yourself. The number of AR-15's in circulation in America exceeds the population of Northern Ireland. It all comes down to the availability of firearms. If people can't access these firearms legally, sure they'll find a way to get them illegally, but at least they can't head over to their neighbor's house and nick their automatic rifle from the gun cabinet and dandy off to the nearest nursery and mow down a bunch of children. the usa has 300X the population of N ireland.. the AR-15 type is used in sport shooting and hunting its not classified as a military weapon its a civilian model its even legal to own in multiple of countries both NA and EU with restrictions. honestly guns are in america to stay no matter how you feel or what you think of right we have to live with them and thats just it we have to figure out how to live with them
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john7
Forum Guest
Posts: 5
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Post by john7 on Jun 14, 2016 17:15:07 GMT -5
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
After 9/11 the citizens of America became willing to let airport security jam its hands in the pants of our children, grandparents and anything in between. Then we let Bush have an invasion war thats lasted for years on end.
"Absolute power corrupts absolutely"
The 2nd amendment exist to give the citizens power. The united states was founded on the idea that the people as a whole have the power, not the government. The people as a whole tell government what to do, not vice versa.
The founding fathers knew that if we did not have this essential right then, eventually, no matter how good the intentions of the government was, eventually, someone would come along that would abuse the fact that we have no guns or ways to protect ourselves. Whether these abusers would be foreign invaders like ISIS or domestic corruption in the top levels of government. The founding fathers were wise enough to foresee these possibilities in our future and that is why its the 2nd amendment, not the 9th or 10th.
AS far as this maniac goes who killed 50 people... This guy was filled with hate, he WOULD find a way to cause harm to people in some fashion. He IS a bad guy and bad guys get their guns ILLEGALLY. Citizens get their guns LEGALLY, laws will only restrict those who obey them. Laws do not stop criminals from doing what they want and buying guns and weapons they desire and then using it on whom they desire.
Bottom line is, laws do not stop crazed fanatics who believe that if they die killing people that they will get 72 virgins and bring their biblical messiah back to them. These guys will get guns no matter how many laws we make.
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Post by CreamPie on Jun 15, 2016 18:17:20 GMT -5
The mass shootings of innocent civilians is a horrendous and unforgivable tragedy. Regardless of our individual stances on gun control, we all have the same desire for the security, well-being, and protection of the public. We all want to live without fear of being targeted by extremists and fanatical murderers. We all want to return to our homes unharmed at the end of the day.
The gun control issue is a debate over blame. For some, they blame our access to assault weapons. This is an understandable reaction. Remove these guns from the equation and the killers won’t have a strong enough weapon to kill lots of people in a short amount of time, right? Unfortunately, that is untrue.
The fact of the matter is that guns are not actually the most effective way to kill in large numbers. Remember that a murderer first decides they want to kill and THEN picks their weapon. If guns are not available, there are many other effective means to kill massive amounts of people. In fact, most modern terrorist killings are done without guns. We see this in the news everyday and throughout history.
September 11, 2001 - accomplished using box cutters and airline planes. Roughly 3000 victims.
Oklahoma City Bombing - accomplished using truck and fertilizer-based explosives. 168 people killed (including children that were in the onsite daycare), 680 injured, and resulted in more than half a billion dollars worth of damage.
Bath School Massacre - one of the largest mass killings at a school in US history (equal to the Columbine and Virginia Tech victims combined). One man claimed the lives of 44 victims and this was accomplished using a series of explosives.
The push to remove or limit guns from civilians is just simply a naive and misguided approach. Those in support of full gun rights believe in placing the blame on the person or group that murdered, not the tool that was used. We need to focus more on the environments that shaped the minds of the killers rather than the gun, the inanimate object.
Keep in mind that these extremists are looking for soft targets -- schools, office buildings, parks, festivals, etc. They are looking for areas with lots of unarmed people. Let’s not give them more power by volunteering to be easy victims.
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Post by Varangian on Jun 15, 2016 18:32:45 GMT -5
Agreed, but you still need more control with guns. It doesn't mean having guns inaccessible to normal people. It means that you actually need to only limit the licenses to people who:
1) Know how to safely own a handgun (in a secured lockbox for example, from which it can be retrieved in under 5 seconds with practise; instead of in an unlocked cupboard, where even a child could grab it. Which is a painfully common method.)
2) Know how to wield a handgun with at least moderate skill
3) Are practised in various methods, or at least have a decent understanding, of self-defense (if your motivation is truly self-defense, then guns are definitely not the first place to start from in any logical or practical sense)
It's clear that these either aren't enforced well enough or simply don't exist in most or all states. Given how there's a gun issue in the first place...
And no fucking military-grade weapons to the civilians. It's plain unnecessary. Give me one logical reason why a civilian needs an AR-15 in his home, when a handgun is more than sufficient for self-defense.
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Post by Darin on Jun 15, 2016 19:19:22 GMT -5
Just to point out Varangian that the guy in this case would have passed your above requirement. He worked for a security company and had gun licenses and all that.
Also just to clarify, he didn't use an AR-15, it was a Sig Sauer MCX.
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Post by Varangian on Jun 15, 2016 19:25:05 GMT -5
Yeah, I probably forgot a couple of factors too - like psychological evaluation, background checks, which would have disqualified this man. Of course, if you really want a gun, you can always get one illegally - the point is that it need not be legal, nor easy to get it. I find this article suddenly thematic again, and it's very well written considering both sides of the issue. www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-riddle-of-the-gun
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