no reason in nature to think there's anything after death.
I've never been a believer myself. I support the Christian church(make that the protestant church, for several reasons). But I just can't see how it can be possible without believing and that's what it's all about. If you believe it to be true, than of course a soul makes sense in the way that your soul is going to heaven/hell ect. But if you do not believe in a god sitting up there on a raining cloud looking down upon you then of course it's hard to believe there is a life after death. I rather believe that there is something out there that might have something to do with the way we're living and evolving not to mention the earth, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a "god" and therefor can not believe there is anything after death.
Afterall, we're just but animals with a conscience and awareness but that doesn't mean that there can't be anything out there(Aliens is out there of course, who else created us!?) but a life after death is a bit to spicy in my taste to be honest and I can't believe it, although I'd love to. I mean what a nice way of die thinking you'll get to heaven or just somewhere else and not down to a maggot filled ground.
All of that said, at the end of the day we will not agree, and I'd rather we end this now before things get heated.
You believe you are right, and I believe I am right. The only way and time we will know for certain is when we die, which can of course be said about this entire thread, which is my little way of getting things back on topic.
We're not surrounded, it's a target rich enviroment! ----- There may be no "I" in team, but there is a "team" in meat shield. ----- Every army need some cannon fodder!
Post by Some Random DoF Guy on Nov 13, 2014 16:38:58 GMT -5
Frankly, if true free will existed there would chaos (and shitloads of it) Our free will is more determined by society (For instance our morals, society imparts their will onto us)
PS: I might confuse free will with freedom but fuck it, i'm tired as Dinky Bliff's donkey
Not a problem, I have a hand on a stick - Syreth Duncan, Discriminating women since 1993 - CreamPie Duncan, Lunatic traitor - Gadric Only trust people who like big butts, they cannot lie Life is good with porn
@ Viglaf And you call yourself a Viking You don't even believe you will go to Valhalla if you die in battle!
Anyway on topic.My reply of course is Heaven or Hell. Although i am not very pious Orthodox Christian,I just can't accept that we are here without any meaning. For me soul is what makes one person. Soul is what stops him from stealing,what makes him return wallet someone dropped even though money in it could feed him.What makes him do right over evil. Soul is what leads you trough life(and making of choices) and in the end(death) all of us stand equal(rich or poor) before God and await his judgement.
@ Darin send me those links as well pls:p
"Never in the field of human history was so much owed by so many to so few"-Sir Winston Churchill's speech of gratitude to RAF.
This thread started out with a question over the existence of an afterlife, and has since evolved (haha get it? evolved?!?!) into the typical debate over religion as a whole.
First of all, I find it rather interesting that you are only associating the concept of an afterlife with the practice of religion. Although many atheists find it "unlikely" at best, there are some that do consider the possibility of an afterlife. Then there are also deists who believe that a supernatural God did create the universe, but essentially didn't stick around to oversee its fate. Basically, a God that is uninterested in human affairs, and has no interest in creating a heaven/hell scenario for us. If you haven't heard of that particular intelligent design theory, it is probably because a God of that nature is quite emotionally unsatisfying.
Now on to what the thread has become. Because I am lazy, I am not going through to individually quote all of you...so I am doing it the old fashion way (with actual quotation marks!!!!).
DeathAngel -- "Christians believe that God created us in his own image and it was during the week of the creation of creation as we know it. Evolution goes by theories and I'm sure you all know the arguments for that side of things."
This definitely needs further discussion. It is a standard argument by theists that evolution is a "theory" and creationism is something more. The understanding of what exactly a scientific theory is seems to be lost on most people. Rather than going into depth over the definition of a theory, I really just want to point out that what you are referring to is a "theological theory." Theology is not exempt from being called a "theory."
DeathAngel -- "I don't believe that we are on this world for nothing because if there is no life after death what even is the point of living?"
Simply put, atheists are not concerned over the "point of living," at least not in the same way that a theist is. Atheists see humans as nothing more than a product of chemistry and physics. I understand how that may sound a bit dry to someone with grand visions of heaven, reincarnation, and essentially living forever. The rewards that come along with theism, particularly with Abrahamic religions such as Christianity, can be very comforting. The idea that you could make the ultimate "good choice" and secure your future for eternity is the best sales tactic I have ever witnessed.
Atheism is uncomfortable. There is not a supreme being on your side, nor are you immune to death. This can be scary to those who were raised to believe in a deity, which is why someone typically does not go from a theist to an atheist overnight. It can take years to fully come to terms with the idea that a God likely does not exist. Once the stages of grief pass, accepting atheism can be enlightening. I often hear the idea that atheists "need to believe in something bigger than themselves," but in actuality, that is exactly what an atheist believes. They do not think of themselves as being free from the laws of nature. They have truly accepted the fact that they will die; it is just the natural process. That really makes you value being alive -- talk about the "point of living!"
DeathAngel -- "From where do people get their morals if they believe they are just going to live on the earth for a short while and then die?"
There is a widespread assumption that religion birthed morality, and this is just not true. Ethics, at its root, has a Darwinian origin -- meaning that it resulted from natural selection. Morality contributes to our survival. If we could not trust that as a general rule, we wouldn't kill each other, lie to each other, etc then we would have been forced to live in isolation. This would not have preserved our species. As ugly as it sounds, we are here out of our own selfish survival techniques, which include systems of ethics. We are not the only species that does this. Other animals will defend their kin, share resources, and warn others of incoming danger. Even bees and ants have created a sort of care system where the older siblings take care of the younger siblings. Surely we can't attribute those ethical choices to religion.
Duncan -- "Our free will is more determined by society (For instance our morals, society imparts their will onto us)."
You should look into the philosophical position of determinism. I think you would enjoy reading up on that. : )
Varangian -- "Religion is never the first source of information for anything unless it concerns what is in the religion."
I thought that sentence was very interesting and thought provoking. Religion was the first source of information for many years, but now we have since advanced in the field of science.
I also liked your statement about the soul being an "abstract concept." To those that are not religious, the word "soul" is used more in a poetic sense, such as referring to someone as a "soulmate" when there is a deeply loving connection between them.
Darin -- "It isn't science vs religion, science can easily factor into religion, and be accounted for."
If you haven't heard the current Pope elaborate on this idea, you should. From what I have read, it seems that he is straying from the traditional ideas of creationism, and focusing more on just the concept of intelligent design. You might like what he has to say about it.
Darin -- "Not to mention a lot of things science has "proven" isn't actually empirically proven, but rather the system that is being used to account for what can/is being observed, fits all the require perimeters. But of course the problem here is when (as there often is) multiple theoretical systems that all work just as well as any other. Plus you also have to take into account the fact that as technology progresses, many things that were "scientifically proven" have later been partially or completely dis proven. For example, Newtonian physics."
In Science, nothing is ever actually "proven," so that term isn't really applicable. This is why we use the term "theory" in the first place. A scientist knows that no matter how many times the same conclusion is met, one piece of solid evidence can change their mind. Scientists aren't living off faith. They use the scientific method as an organized system for getting from point A to point B. That is necessary for differentiating between conclusions that are based on imagination, and those based on evidence (or that which has not been ruled out). Yes, conclusions change as we advance in the field of science, but some credit should be given. Organized religion has been around for thousands of years, compared to only a few hundred years that modern science has been in practice...and look at what has already been accomplished in that time frame.
Additionally, I guess I should point out that Christianity has also “disproven” beliefs that were previously held in the past. Ideas regarding slavery, the roles of women, purgatory for unbaptized children, and more have all been partially or completely abandoned. Those are just recent examples, as I am sure more have come and gone in the last few thousand years.
Viglaf -- "I rather believe that there is something out there that might have something to do with the way we're living and evolving not to mention the earth, but I wouldn't go as far as to call it a "god" and therefor can not believe there is anything after death. Afterall, we're just but animals with a conscience and awareness but that doesn't mean that there can't be anything out there(Aliens is out there of course, who else created us!?) but a life after death is a bit to spicy in my taste to be honest and I can't believe it, although I'd love to. I mean what a nice way of die thinking you'll get to heaven or just somewhere else and not down to a maggot filled ground."
This is what makes these debates great. My goal isn't to convert anyone, or to impose my beliefs on them. If anything, I am hoping for someone of the opposite viewpoint to say something that provokes me to reconsider my stance, even for a moment. Being inspired to consider the alternatives is the fun part.
Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 10:37:27 GMT -5 by CreamPie: Dante and DeathAngel are two different people. :p
Life: I am going to hug you Me: please don't Life: (っ◉-◉)っ -Duncan
Bubs: WHATS FEMALE DoF CreamPie: Mythical creatures used to distract men with skirts and baked goods
That's how science operates. It seeks to disprove itself and evolve with new, better 'theories' that describe reality better.
In science we have induction and deduction, induction for extrapolating from facts or observations and deduction in order to make factual judgements from facts. It evolves as new information comes up. Then we have religion, which offers an answer set in stone, so to speak. It doesn't change, because it's not based on reality that is everchanging. That's the fundamental difference between science and religion and why they can't really mingle. In these questions of nature and reality, religion doesn't have a serious claim to answering them.
Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 0:34:43 GMT -5 by Varangian
Somehow lots of people managed to ninja my post up there.
That was an awesome post Cream. Really solid thinking.
The problem is that one side or the other is usually unwilling to reconsider whatsoever. That's basically what Darin said. No amount of evidence is ever going to make him change his opinion, therefore he thinks this sort of debate is ultimately futile.
Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 7:00:26 GMT -5 by Varangian
I like everyone's viewpoints, although most of you have way out ranged my intelligence at this point, I do agree with the inevitable Religion v Science debate because your beliefs affect what you think happens in the afterlife, (If anything for some.) I would get philosophical along with you all, but alas. This chaps brain cannot compete. I must say though, it is a great debate and I'm enjoying all the viewpoints, very interesting!
This thread blew up quite fast. I don't feel like reading everything.
Anywhosers, I choose the "That's it. Gone" option. However, with this debate in mind, one must know that it is actually nearly impossible to scientifically, or religiously, tell if there is some sort of afterlife. Scientifically, we would have to directly observe what happens to a person's conscious after death on multiple occasions, but that can't happen because, you know, you're dead and can't communicate with the living if there happens to be one. Religiously, you have to keep faith in the scriptures and teachings of priests and other authorities that their is an afterlife. Faith alone can't prove it, but who knows? Maybe one day someone with faith that the afterlife exists, or someone with the desire to disprove it, somehow creates a device that allows us to see what happens(going back to scientifically proving).
It should come as no shocker that I choose this option, being an agnostic atheist. However, I would like to pose another question. Are you afraid to die? I ask that, because sometimes I find the result to be intriguing. Usually, those who believe in an afterlife are afraid to die while those that don't, are not afraid.
My answer to that question is no. I am afraid of how and when I am going to die, but I am not afraid of death itself. Its natural, and it happens to everyone. There is no chance in trying to escape or prolong it. Just live life to the best of your abilities so that when you are on your death bed, you can rest in peace.
Edit: I posted twice for some reason. Deleted the second post.
Last Edit: Nov 14, 2014 13:40:37 GMT -5 by William