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Debate
Jun 3, 2013 12:18:35 GMT -5
Post by William on Jun 3, 2013 12:18:35 GMT -5
About the historical examples. - The Enlightenment: What were women treated like before the Enlightenment? I doubt it was any different, or probably harsher.
- The French Revolution: It started on the ideals of the Enlightenment, yes, but like I said previously, a lot of things cause issues like this. It was actually the mixture of the Enlightenment and people getting tired of the basic theocracy that France had for several centuries.
- Communism: Communism isn't what started the bad things. The opposition to Socialism is what caused Communism to rise in a violent way. In Russia, the idea of Church and State being separate, like Socialism proposed, was insane. So, guess what? They banned Socialism. Then more radical Socialist formed Communism and thus the revolution began. If Russia wasn't so worried about having Church and State separated, then Communism may have never even started.
- Evolution: It wasn't the idea of Evolution that helped spread racism, it was writers that came up with the idea Social Darwinism that spread racism, sexism, etc. Although Evolution led to the writers creating Social Darwinism, putting the blame on Evolution isn't right. Social Darwinism was created by these writers to satisfy the growing industrial market (at least that is what I got from my class), and literally has nothing to do with Evolution besides "the strong shall survive" (I think). Hell, even Darwin said that Evolution shouldn't be applied to social aspects of life.
I read what you said, but I just wanted to explain a little more :3 BULLs**t faith doesn't apply in science! You are right, evolution is a THEORY, and has never been proven, but SO many scientists base there thinking of the world and there theory of things on an evolutionary standard. You don't think that's FAITH? Faith is believing in something, anything. You have faith that when you get out of bed in the morning, gravity won't crush you to death. You have faith when you walk out side that the radiation from the sun won't kill you. You may say "aw but we know gravity won't crush me to death" but how do you know that will still apply tomorrow? you don't know, but you have faith that it will. Faith is in every aspect of every persons life. I have faith that I am, in fact, alive right now and not just dreaming this entire world. You have faith that I am an actual person and not just some figment of your imagination. Faith is different than belief, you seem to get those to confused. Faith is an unquestionable belief (usually regardless of evidence), and not all beliefs require faith. If I believe in the Theory of Gravity, then it is dis-proven to be false, I no longer believe in the Theory of Gravity. If I have faith in that situation, however, that the Theory of Gravity is true, it'll take me a lot longer (or possibly, never) for me to actually believe it is dis-proven. I don't have faith in any of those things. I believe, from evidence and studies, that gravity won't crush me, the suns radiation won't instantly kill (which it could from skin cancer), that I am alive, and that you are an actual person. If something were to dis-prove that, then my belief would change, which is where faith and belief differ. Let me ask you Darin, what if your faith is wrong? This is not meant to be mean, let me explain. Scientist, and others, ask themselves all the time if they're wrong and even try to disprove themselves wrong. I have never seen anyone like yourself just ask themselves that. It makes me curious, in a sense. I know that if I'm wrong about Evolution, then we'll keep trying to find the right answer, and eventually we'll get there. But what if you're wrong? (Again, not meant to be mean or offensive, just curious) Also, please understand what a Theory is. Nothing is just a Theory. Gravity is a theory, yet we abide by it everyday. To get a Theory, we must study it constantly, gather evidence for it, etc. We never stop doing this. We just don't go "Oh, hey, we got a Theory. That's good enough for me, let's stop." No. They're are scientist out in the world right now looking for ways to prove Theories and even trying to disprove them. This will never stop until the Theory is dis-proven or proven to be a Law. The way you say it, too, makes is sound like if Evolution was dis-proven, then that'll be the end of it. That's completely incorrect. We already have tons of evidence and studies showing that at least part of Evolution is true. Thus we would start a new, but different, Theory that surrounds the evidence we have and go from there.
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Debate
Jun 3, 2013 12:20:42 GMT -5
Post by William on Jun 3, 2013 12:20:42 GMT -5
I'm going to reply to Varangian's post too, so don't think I'm singling you out. I'm just going to take a break
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Debate
Jun 3, 2013 12:45:21 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 3, 2013 12:45:21 GMT -5
Hey, nice post. Looking forward to your reply. I'm hoping it helps me to organize my argument better as well.
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Debate
Jun 3, 2013 17:31:14 GMT -5
Post by William on Jun 3, 2013 17:31:14 GMT -5
Calm down, try to calm down really. Think about it. Faith is unquestionable belief in something, something so unwavering that no proof could ever sway it. Faith is the ultimatum of believing. Science is not about this. Science is not about determining results beforehand and sticking with them regardless of the testing(unless you're in the Soviet Union): in fact, from what you wrote, I don't think you even know what the scientifical process is. The process goes from hypothesis to analysis of the results, and at any point during that process the outcome and the analysis can change radically. This has nothing to do with faith - faith is not open-minded. I don't need to have 'faith' in that the gravity won't crush me to death tomorrow. I know it won't. This is because I know certain laws of physics apply here, and will not be changed randomly because a divine being somewhere up there decides so. Faith is a religious thing, spawned from organized religion. It's extreme. In fact, one of faith's explanations is: " Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. "There you have it - faith is inapplicable in science. My knowledge that the gravity will not crush me rests on a firm knowledge of the laws of physics, not superstition. You don't even realize what science is, do you? Hey, here's a quick test. Do you believe in gravity? Do you believe in evolution, then? Evolution has more proof backing it up than gravity does. And this is actual evidence, recorded over centuries. DNA. Fossiles. Concrete data. You might also misunderstand what "a theory" means in science. In science, any complex model is called "a theory". The theory that life evolved from earlier life is as well supported as the "theories" that the continents drift, that germs cause disease and that stuff is made of atoms. You can bet your life on all of those "theories". Not only that, but there are nearly 12,000 Christian CLERGY who've signed a statement supporting evolution and rejecting the teaching of creationism as science. Science isn't about voting, but even if it was, evolution still wins. Here is an example of how scientists used evolutionary theory to predict a particular undiscovered species should exist, when it should have existed, and where to dig NOW to find a fossil of it. They went to that spot, and dug up 5 examples. What has creationism predicted? (Yeah I realize I'm taking this to other levels. You don't have to answer to these, you can consider I'm ranting... but I would appreciate an answer in any case.) tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/searching4Tik.htmlAnd finally, evolution isn't trying to explain the creation of first life or the creation of the universe. The latter is called cosmology. Only be denying reality or lying can you refuse evolution. After this little side-track, I will return to the original question: is science faith-based like religion? No. Why? I take it that your thoughts on the matter are something along these lines(found from Answers in Genesis website about faith in science) This is completely wrong and shows a major lack of understanding for the scientific method. The scientific method makes one assumption, and one assumption only: the Universe obeys a set of rules. That’s it. There is one conclusion, and that is that if the Universe follows these rules, then those rules can be made out by observing the way Universe behaves. This follows easily enough; if it obeys the rules, then the rules must be revealed by that behavior. I think that should answer the question satisfyingly enough: science is definitely not faith-based. The fact that you know that gravity won't crush you. Well, its not likely that it will, its actually more likely that gravity will weaken over time and we'll start to float off in space. But you can't know this for sure, regardless. That is one of the reasons Gravity is a Theory. We don't know all of it's properties yet. We don't know if it can or cannot randomly sift behaviors depending on variables. So we truly don't know if one day its going to be tens times the strength of the other, or weaker for that matter. Yeah, we can conclude that based on the research so far we see no reason that it should crush us, but we don't know for sure. I already addressed the Theory thingy in my previous post, and you can say that I agree with Varangian. I've also addressed the faith thing and don't feel like retyping it. I think you meant Scientific Process rather than Method. The Method is Question - Research - Hypothesis - Experiment - Conclusion - Publish. But I agree with you on the assumption part. Every Theory and Law in Science is based on the fact that the Universe has certain properties (rules as Varangian states). That is why some of Einstein's theory's are being questioned lately; we learned more about the Universe and it's Laws.
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Debate
Jun 4, 2013 2:52:45 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 4, 2013 2:52:45 GMT -5
The fact that you know that gravity won't crush you. Well, its not likely that it will, its actually more likely that gravity will weaken over time and we'll start to float off in space. But you can't know this for sure, regardless. That is one of the reasons Gravity is a Theory. We don't know all of it's properties yet. We don't know if it can or cannot randomly sift behaviors depending on variables. So we truly don't know if one day its going to be tens times the strength of the other, or weaker for that matter. Yeah, we can conclude that based on the research so far we see no reason that it should crush us, but we don't know for sure. I already addressed the Theory thingy in my previous post, and you can say that I agree with Varangian. I've also addressed the faith thing and don't feel like retyping it. I think you meant Scientific Process rather than Method. The Method is Question - Research - Hypothesis - Experiment - Conclusion - Publish. But I agree with you on the assumption part. Every Theory and Law in Science is based on the fact that the Universe has certain properties (rules as Varangian states). That is why some of Einstein's theory's are being questioned lately; we learned more about the Universe and it's Laws. If we go to the little things, the details(and we must), you're right. I don't know if the gravity will crush me - however, it is quite unlikely in the light of our current knowledge. It's always easy to mistake current knowledge, as vast as it is, to be the final form generally speaking - I was wrong there. Yeah, I meant Process. But I'm not generally as well-versed in these matters as you are, given I only just finished primary school. I'll blame my mistake on that general ignorance. EDIT - more background on why religion of any kind is at the base of anything evil we have in this world. Religion began as the early man's attempt of understanding the world, how it functions, how it came to be, the ignorant man's science so to speak. Very quickly it started to be used to control the masses, perhaps(we can't tell) it was created with that specifically in mind. The people who have died in the name of God far exceeds the number of people who've died in the name of something else such as national interest or political gain, and usually religion is thrown in there amidst those things anyway.
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Debate
Jun 5, 2013 16:05:51 GMT -5
Post by Otttiger on Jun 5, 2013 16:05:51 GMT -5
so many much words... "Why cant we be friends?" a message from War
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Debate
Jun 13, 2013 7:27:37 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 13, 2013 7:27:37 GMT -5
I found this great video. This part lasts about 13 minutes, and it makes some very good points that are opposed to religion and media.
If you are interested to hear them, please listen to this with an open mind and critical thoughts. I think it's controversial enough, so can we talk about those points?
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 8:24:31 GMT -5
Post by Some Random DoF Guy on Jul 7, 2013 8:24:31 GMT -5
To the Christians, Why the fuck do you people need to bash and hate atheists? It's something that has been on my mind for quite a while now and i've come up with stuff but i'd prefer if one of you guys could answer this
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 8:55:58 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jul 7, 2013 8:55:58 GMT -5
Yeah, I agree with what Duncan said. The people who do good in the name of god would continue doing good even without their faith, because they enjoy helping people. To help people in fear of a god, or gods, or what he/she or they might do to you, isn't very moral.
I don't hate those religions, but I do think they are harmful, especially when associated with government and decision-making. Decisions based on unjustified belief is a scary thought, and we can see where it has lead in the past. There are some examples of the same kind of thinking causing problems nowadays as well. In Egypt, the people rebelled against an Islamist fundamentalistic president, who apparently made a law that put him above the law.
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 11:58:05 GMT -5
Post by William on Jul 7, 2013 11:58:05 GMT -5
To the Christians, Why the f**k do you people need to bash and hate atheists? It's something that has been on my mind for quite a while now and i've come up with stuff but i'd prefer if one of you guys could answer this Don't include all Christians. Darin is very nice, and even understanding in some areas, towards me and my Atheism. There are Christians who find Atheism insulting (of course there are other reasons, but this is the majority in my opinion) and want to stop it, whom are the ones you are talking about. Many Christians don't think this, but they are not the ones being widely heard. Edit: Hell, not just Darin either. Otttiger hasn't been bashing me, or Erminas, or anyone in this clan for that matter. I realize that this is just a gaming clan, but we do have debates. They could have bashed us a long time ago if they wanted to. Only a couple of Christians in real life have bashed me so far, but that could be because I'm not an outspoken Atheist (mainly because I find debates with most people to be pointless).
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 12:21:30 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jul 7, 2013 12:21:30 GMT -5
I'm mostly an outspoken atheist, and I think that Darin and everyone else in this clan are very understanding considering their viewpoints. I like all of them individually. The debates we have here are nothing compared to some I have had in Facebook (for example), where many people choose to block me after a debate.
Nothing of that sort here, I like the atmosphere a lot. We have our opinions and everyone is listened to, each point is answered and there is very little dishonesty. I think nowadays religion is more and more becoming a way of life rather than unjustified belief, but I think being an outspoken atheist certainly helps to raise questions against unjustified belief which is a dangerous thing.
Each of us is an individual being and only some of us make decisions based on unjustified belief. It would be very unfair to say that a certain group is attributed some certain values in its every specimen, even though those values might turn up in most of them.
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 13:21:24 GMT -5
Post by Some Random DoF Guy on Jul 7, 2013 13:21:24 GMT -5
To the Christians, Why the f**k do you people need to bash and hate atheists? It's something that has been on my mind for quite a while now and i've come up with stuff but i'd prefer if one of you guys could answer this Don't include all Christians. Darin is very nice, and even understanding in some areas, towards me and my Atheism. There are Christians who find Atheism insulting (of course there are other reasons, but this is the majority in my opinion) and want to stop it, whom are the ones you are talking about. Many Christians don't think this, but they are not the ones being widely heard. Edit: Hell, not just Darin either. Otttiger hasn't been bashing me, or Erminas, or anyone in this clan for that matter. I realize that this is just a gaming clan, but we do have debates. They could have bashed us a long time ago if they wanted to. Only a couple of Christians in real life have bashed me so far, but that could be because I'm not an outspoken Atheist (mainly because I find debates with most people to be pointless). I know you guys don't bash I am very grateful for that! I am an outspoken atheist but i tend to avoid religious topics with Christians because they're kind of ignorant (Not all, mind you) and when you want an intellectual debate their answer would be 'God did it'. I don't hate Christians or any other relgious folk. They do tend to annoy the hell outa me with how immoral atheists are and that we're going to hell if we don't convert. With immoral i mean this 'Oh, you don't believe? Well then, you have no morals!' Which is complete bullshit. The bible is a guideline to improve your life. I view it as mythology as mythology also has life lessons.
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 17:10:51 GMT -5
Post by Otttiger on Jul 7, 2013 17:10:51 GMT -5
To the Christians, Why the f**k do you people need to bash and hate atheists? It's something that has been on my mind for quite a while now and i've come up with stuff but i'd prefer if one of you guys could answer this Just saying, but Atheists bash Christians the same if not more than the Christians do, and most Christians are just going to debate it then pray for the atheists.
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 17:15:40 GMT -5
Post by Some Random DoF Guy on Jul 7, 2013 17:15:40 GMT -5
To the Christians, Why the f**k do you people need to bash and hate atheists? It's something that has been on my mind for quite a while now and i've come up with stuff but i'd prefer if one of you guys could answer this Just saying, but Atheists bash Christians the same if not more than the Christians do, and most Christians are just going to debate it then pray for the atheists. Unfortunately that is true. I just hope that this nonesense will end. The bashing must stop imo
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Debate
Jul 7, 2013 19:07:26 GMT -5
Post by Syreth on Jul 7, 2013 19:07:26 GMT -5
Just saying, but Atheists bash Christians the same if not more than the Christians do, and most Christians are just going to debate it then pray for the atheists. Unfortunately that is true. I just hope that this nonesense will end. The bashing must stop imo I hope the don't. People who bash other people's beliefs (Whether Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Pagan, Waffleconist, or fucking any religion) just to upset them is helpful for intelligent and decent human beings, seeing how it's a pretty quickly conveys that this person isn't worth talking too, assuring that you don't waste time talking to an ignorant jackass.
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