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Jun 1, 2013 23:53:50 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 1, 2013 23:53:50 GMT -5
f**king turkish assholes, government mostly. This is seriously pissing me off, it's happening everywhere, we humans are a doomed species and I just can't enjoy it. I want to just sit back, relax, enjoy the show these dumb, DUMB motherf**kers are giving me, but no... too angry about it. Maybe in ten years I will be able to not care. The fact that you don't want to care is what makes humans a doomed species most of all. I have no stake in the outcome - that's what I'm saying. Most people are not like that. Most people are in the freak show, either as the freaks, trying to fix the freaks, etc... there is no hope for this species. What are we going to do, move to space? Yeah, those guys are going to make our lives very interesting. And when the world economies collapse, it'll get a lot more interesting. Lethally interesting. It's quite funny what we do to compliment our greed, personal needs, anything, really. Those who try to fix these freaks, alright - fix the drug-users? Fix the greedy bastards? They don't even have the right approach to it! All they apply are band-aids, TEMPORARY fixes, fixing technology with technology. Somehow that just doesn't seem, doesn't seem very healthy to me. And now finally one country has exploded, is in anarchy. So save some time and nuke yourselves.
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Jun 2, 2013 9:59:54 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 9:59:54 GMT -5
You are a sad sad example of a human being.
If you have no hope, why not commit suicide?
You are a nihilists, so why bother with life if its all s**t and not worth anything?
You are a perfect example of someone who believes the world is a horrible place and there is no hope, that we are all doomed, so why not just end it quickly? Why not just nuke the planet and be done with it? Oh, but what about the people who live happy lives? The people who are content with life and go about there daily lives without serious worry or care? What about the people who have hope, and who believe and understand that things are continuously getting better? What about all the people who DON'T WANT TO DIE? That is the reason you would never really destroy the world, even if you had the chance to do it. You wouldn't because even you know that there are people who aren't like you, people who have hope and people who are happy.
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Jun 2, 2013 11:50:04 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 2, 2013 11:50:04 GMT -5
You are a sad sad example of a human being. If you have no hope, why not commit suicide? You are a nihilists, so why bother with life if its all s**t and not worth anything? You are a perfect example of someone who believes the world is a horrible place and there is no hope, that we are all doomed, so why not just end it quickly? Why not just nuke the planet and be done with it? Oh, but what about the people who live happy lives? The people who are content with life and go about there daily lives without serious worry or care? What about the people who have hope, and who believe and understand that things are continuously getting better? What about all the people who DON'T WANT TO DIE? That is the reason you would never really destroy the world, even if you had the chance to do it. You wouldn't because even you know that there are people who aren't like you, people who have hope and people who are happy. Oh no, you have misunderstood my post completely. Apologies if I made it look like something it was not! I take the blame for that. I'm making observations... not stating my actual opinions. Sure, fix the people - or try to fix them. Or just live your lives like you want, have a load of fun while living - that's my whole point. That's why I continue living - to have fun. To do something worthwhile. I wasn't aiming that previous argument at any of the content people - it was in fact aimed at the very people you described. And to the people who actually don't care what happens to other people - the hypocritical lowlives. I want to live a good life, sure, but I'm placing doubt on whether that will be possible in the future. And my approach to tackle the issue is cynical - which is warped idealism. Please, just please, calm down... and take an argument as an argument, something to tackle with logic, not insults... I have one more thing to add, however. You stated that people would not destroy the world if they could. ...well, that should never happen. I say the second you gave someone the tools to blow up this Earth, everyone on the planet would want their hands on that motherf**ker. Just to 'make sure he won't blow it up by accident', perhaps... or then some religious fanatics might really want to blow this place up, which is also quite agreeably true. We really do have some dumb motherf**kers floating around here... and somehow we keep electing them to lead us. That is what makes me angry the most - as if that would be the best we can do? Well, perhaps it actually is like that - George Bush came from an American home and was elected by American people(albeit in a probably unlawful way...) yet he still received very close to 50% of the votes... which goes a long way to prove my point to be at least partially true. I have more examples, of course. But I think we all know the really dumb ones will almost always be those who get the most support... know why? Because most of us really are dumb. Monkey see, monkey do applies here as well. Seems like I just can't stop editing this post. I simply hate the fact that nowadays bigger always means better, wealth automatically translates to GOOD, and that every one of those little groups has to have their own hats, armbands, fight songs... starting from organized religion. That's where it all started from. Thank you for reading this post - appreciate it! - and have an enjoyable day!
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Jun 2, 2013 14:00:40 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 14:00:40 GMT -5
I didn't mean any of my post as an insult, and sorry if it came off as that. I was actually making an argument from a logical stand point, because if someone actually is the people I described in my post, then the only logical answer is suicide.
Also I see what your point was before, and I am sorry that I aimed my last post towards you, but taking that away I think my point still stands, directing it at the people you and I both were criticizing.
Also, I do not doubt that there are people who would destroy the world if given the chance, that part was directed at you specifically (again, I misunderstood your point), so that was my opinion of you, not a generalization. Yeah I am sure there are lots of people who would destroy the world if given the chance.
Also I disagree with you 100% about organized religion being the cause of all of this. Religion, organized or not, is no different from any philosophy. Atheists have a philosophy by which they live by, and it dictates what they will do in any/all situations. Same goes for deists, or agnostics, etc.
You can not blame religion for something that in many cases was, or can be, directly caused by ANTI religious philosophies. Examples: the French revolution, Communism, the Nazi movement, etc.
Now I am not saying that all non religious philosophies are anti religion, in fact many philosophies are compatible with some or all religions, and vice versa.
It is very bias and foolish to blame religion as the cause or the start of any/all problems, when there are MANY historical examples of, and often non "religious", philosophies causing not only major problems, but also wars, racism, sexism, hatred, revolutions etc. etc. the list could go on forever.
Sorry for another wall of text...
Back more on topic of Turkey, I really REALLY hope it doesn't turn into a revolution, for many reasons (as most of you know I am adamantly anti revolution), but also because if they end up having a coup d'etat instead (probably lead by the military or some high ranking military people), it will be a lot shorter and far less bloody.
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Jun 2, 2013 14:40:23 GMT -5
Post by William on Jun 2, 2013 14:40:23 GMT -5
I didn't mean any of my post as an insult, and sorry if it came off as that. I was actually making an argument from a logical stand point, because if someone actually is the people I described in my post, then the only logical answer is suicide. Also I see what your point was before, and I am sorry that I aimed my last post towards you, but taking that away I think my point still stands, directing it at the people you and I both were criticizing. Also, I do not doubt that there are people who would destroy the world if given the chance, that part was directed at you specifically (again, I misunderstood your point), so that was my opinion of you, not a generalization. Yeah I am sure there are lots of people who would destroy the world if given the chance. Also I disagree with you 100% about organized religion being the cause of all of this. Religion, organized or not, is no different from any philosophy. Atheists have a philosophy by which they live by, and it dictates what they will do in any/all situations. Same goes for deists, or agnostics, etc. You can not blame religion for something that in many cases was, or can be, directly caused by ANTI religious philosophies. Examples: the French revolution, Communism, the Nazi movement, etc. Now I am not saying that all non religious philosophies are anti religion, in fact many philosophies are compatible with some or all religions, and vice versa. It is very bias and foolish to blame religion as the cause or the start of any/all problems, when there are MANY historical examples of, and often non "religious", philosophies causing not only major problems, but also wars, racism, sexism, hatred, revolutions etc. etc. the list could go on forever. Sorry for another wall of text... Back more on topic of Turkey, I really REALLY hope it doesn't turn into a revolution, for many reasons (as most of you know I am adamantly anti revolution), but also because if they end up having a coup d'etat instead (probably lead by the military or some high ranking military people), it will be a lot shorter and far less bloody. Before I comment on this, I need to correct something. Only part of the French revolution was anti-religious, and it only lasted for 1 or so years. After that, the anti-religion agenda was dismissed. The Nazi Movement is no where close to being anti-religious. Nazism is anti-JEWISH but not anti-religious. Fascism lives off religion, and I think Nazism is based off Catholicism. Communism is usually anti-religious though :3 About the blame of all this. I don't think you can blame one sole thing on this, or any issue for that matter. There is a lot of things that go into issues like this, so blaming one thing isn't accurate. However, you can blame one issue more than the other. And to say that this is directly influenced by anti-religious philosophy is completely wrong. The political parties that are part of the "Opposition" or the government are all religious. All of them are Muslim, as far as I know, and do not live on a anti-religious agenda. I'm kinda bothered by the Atheist philosophy thing, because I myself do not follow any philosophy, and I'm pretty other Atheist do not as well. Truly I haven't studied, learned, and live by any philosophy. Religion is also very different from philosophies. I can explain more on this later, but mainly Religion has numerous ceremonies and rituals that members must do, in Religions you must follow the teachings strictly to be considered a member of that Religion, and lets not forget that Religion is way more organized and solidarity than Philosophy will ever be. Tell me all the historical examples of non-religious philosophies causing major problems, I would like to know. Also, there are also direct causes of problems from religions as well, so people can blame religion for responsibility in those events (crusades, the holocaust, 100 years war, jihads, terrorists groups, etc). There are a lot of events that the cause was from religion.
Anyways, many people don't want another coup d'etat. They said that a lot of people got killed in the last one and a very symbolic child got killed as well. They just want change, as peaceful as possible, they don't want a violent revolution or a coup d'etat. In fact, people are worried of a worse dictatorship from a coup.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:28:32 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 2, 2013 15:28:32 GMT -5
Religion started the thing with the hats(everyone gotta have his/her own hat, armband) - it started capitalism, the hierarchies we have nowadays, the values of wealth = GOOD, it started all of that. Religion also gives a very nice basis for anything evil to happen - 'our god has a bigger dick than your god, you deserve to die because of that' is a very extreme example of this.
It's not to say that organized religion hasn't been entirely corrupting, but that's mostly what it has actually achieved. Religion, organized religion has brainwashed people since childhood to do thing in a certain patterned way, and it has lead to a lot of trouble in the past and even nowadays. (See prohibition of condoms by the Catholic Church in Swasiland for example.*)
Religion is corrupting and BAD in human hands. In any hands, actually. What good can you see coming from organized religion? Look at history. Look at how badly we've been f**ked by religion. Religion is simply a tool to control the masses! Think of all the things that point towards that:
Religion has all the necessary stuff for leaders to use to 'lead' their subordinates into doing anything. The ten commandments! Why ten, not eleven or nine? Because the number ten has certain weight to it. Top 10 supermodels, Best out of 10, and so on and so forth. We know that "ten" is important. It gives the commandments authority. That's most likely what the people who came up with it thought about in the first place.
I believe, however, that you can blame it all on organized religion. That's where all the s**t started from. That is my firm belief, and I will never cease attacking organized religion.
* Every fourth person in Swasiland has the HIV-virus.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:29:29 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 15:29:29 GMT -5
Thanks for correcting the part about the Nazi's, and you are correct that the French Revolution was not entirely anti religion, but in the beginning it was, and they later changed it to incorporate a religion where "reason" was the highest power.
I agree that blame is drawn from many things, which is what my point was.
"And to say that this is directly influenced by anti-religious philosophy is completely wrong." I never said it was, all the part of my post talking about this wasn't connected to Turkey in anyway. I never mentioned anything about Turkey in that part of my post.
Let me explain what I mean by philosophy. To me, philosophy is the code/creed/what ever you want to call it, that people live there lives by. And everyone has a bases for how they live there life. That is what my point was, not that a certain philosophical system like Marxism, is what a certain person (atheist or not) believes in, but that a persons core belief is there "philosophy". It was my fault for using the wrong terms. And every one lives by a philosophy, even if its not a philosophical system, they still have some type of core belief that governs how they live and what they do/don't do.
You are correct that Religion is different from philosophy, but the point I was trying to make is that someone can have a philosophy that they live by which has just as big as an impact on them/the way they live as a religion does.
And just to point out, I never said religions don't/haven't caused bad stuff, but to put it more accurately, people who claim to follow/be a certain religion, cause most of those problems, not the actual religion itself. On a side note here, I think its important to judge any religion based on its teachings primarily, not what the "followers" of that religion do, because many times people will claim a certain religion as there's, but do not even follow many/any of its teachings. So you cant judge Islam based on Muslim terrorists, because the Koran does not necessarily teach that Muslims should go out and be terrorists, yet there are Muslim terrorists that claim they are following the teachings of the Koran, but like I said, that's just what some PEOPLE are doing, and we all know how corruptible humans are.
And as to the historical examples, here are just the ones I could think of off the top of my head. The enlightenment did a lot of damage to women's rights, which is what lead to the male chauvinist's of the 1800's. Another example is the French revolution, which was directly influenced by enlightenment philosophy. Communism is another one. Evolution (now I know this is not exactly a philosophy, but if you consider it as a basic belief that effects how people live there life, as there are now many evolutionists that do this exactly, then I think it could be listed in this group [also I make a distinction between someone who believes in evolution, and someone who IS an EVOLUTIONIST, because evolution as a theory is just an idea about how things work, but an evolutionIST is someone who holds evolution as there basic belief]) did a lot to spread racism early on because most white people considered black people to be closer related to apes, thus they were less evolved then white people, and typically considered to be dumber. I would like to point out that this one is actually really stupid, and very illogical. I mean even during the 1800's, it was very easy to see that the blacks who had been brought to Europe were just as smart as white people (I mean the ones who had lived in Europe for generations), and if anything, you could make the argument that native Africans (specific example the Zulu), were MORE evolved then white people because they were physically stronger and more athletic then a lot of white people during that time (not the actual reason for this is because of there life style, they were very active from a young age which made them more athletic, it didn't have anything to do with there race), but if you were going to try and make it about race, then to me, the majority of black people during this time, were MORE evolved then white people, by being stronger, faster etc. Again this was actually because the way they lived and actually had nothing to do with there race.
Now those are all the examples of the top of my head, but let me be sure a stress something.
In almost ALL of the examples I gave, the original person/people who came up with each of the respective ideas, never intended for there ideas to cause the bad things they did. But like I kind of mentioned before, humans are basically bad (and by basically I mean at there base, there core, we are all bad and capable of doing bad things), so when Darwin presented the theory of evolution, he didn't intend for it to be used as an excuse for racism (I don't know a whole lot about him personally but as far as I know Darwin was by no means a racist), but bad people took his theory of evolution and used it as an excuse to get away with racism. I think this could be said for pretty much all the examples I gave, as well as almost all religions that have caused bad things. Just because someone takes an idea and uses it for there own means/gains and does bad things while using that idea as an excuse to do them, it doesn't mean the idea itself is bad.
Again, I no means meant to offend Atheists or anyone who believes in evolution, and I hope I did a good job of being fair to both of them, and to all of the different views I talked about.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:32:40 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 15:32:40 GMT -5
And to Varangian's last post: I am not only offended but I am very angry that you make such high handed accusations. If you study history you will also see all the good various religions have done, and you cant blame a religion itself for the acts of evil men who merely used it for there own gain.
It pisses me off even more when I, as a Christian, am trying to be fair to all views, and give credit where credit is due, while you come here and just lambaste religion with no regard for anything but your own views and beliefs. You are giving a very bad image to non religious people by what you are saying. You are not even allowing for co-existences, you are basically saying religion is the greatest evil and should be done away with.
Now, I could be wrong here but between the two of us, you and me, which of us is being dogmatic and closed minded? An accusation that is very liberally thrown at all religions.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:43:26 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 2, 2013 15:43:26 GMT -5
Such various goods like schooling? That's quite very minor, considering they also brainwashed the kids to follow their religion in the process. And then these kids grew up to murder more people over religious wars.
Religion is just another tool to control the masses. How does it differ from any other 'theory', or belief, then? You are incorrect in your base assumption that a theory and a religion are even remotely similar. They are not.
The evolution theory has nothing about killing homosexuals for being homosexual, stoning women, or holy wars over races. Religion has all of that. More, even. It was created with politics and mass control in mind, not any divine plan - or, hey, let's actually concentrate on the Gods themselves!
How about the Bill of Rights, for example? You ask where those rights come from, the answer comes: "They're God-given rights."
That's odd. God must've been doing some sloppy work, as that Bill of Rights has been amended sixteen times already. He also forgot some important things like... slavery. Probably just slipped his mind, I guess...
Speaking of the number of rights you have, the british have thirteen. Are they somehow better? Does God like them more? Doesn't really seem like divine planning to me. Seems more like human planning. And that's what religion is all about. Human planning to gain more control. A lot of people bought it, live their lives patterned by it, and are happily controlled through it. Religion has so much bulls**t in it that yes indeed, I can blame it for every bad thing it has caused, opposed to the evolution theory, which is a THEORY... quite different from a religion. See, faith does not apply in science.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:48:18 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 15:48:18 GMT -5
BULLSHIT faith doesn't apply in science! You are right, evolution is a THEORY, and has never been proven, but SO many scientists base there thinking of the world and there theory of things on an evolutionary standard. You don't think that's FAITH? Faith is believing in something, anything. You have faith that when you get out of bed in the morning, gravity won't crush you to death. You have faith when you walk out side that the radiation from the sun won't kill you.
You may say "aw but we know gravity won't crush me to death" but how do you know that will still apply tomorrow? you don't know, but you have faith that it will. Faith is in every aspect of every persons life. I have faith that I am, in fact, alive right now and not just dreaming this entire world. You have faith that I am an actual person and not just some figment of your imagination.
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Jun 2, 2013 15:54:05 GMT -5
Post by Darin on Jun 2, 2013 15:54:05 GMT -5
Also I would like to suggest that we move all of these posts in our argument to a different thread, since this thread if about Turkey and now our current debate.
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Jun 2, 2013 16:16:05 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 2, 2013 16:16:05 GMT -5
BULLs**t faith doesn't apply in science! You are right, evolution is a THEORY, and has never been proven, but SO many scientists base there thinking of the world and there theory of things on an evolutionary standard. You don't think that's FAITH? Faith is believing in something, anything. You have faith that when you get out of bed in the morning, gravity won't crush you to death. You have faith when you walk out side that the radiation from the sun won't kill you. You may say "aw but we know gravity won't crush me to death" but how do you know that will still apply tomorrow? you don't know, but you have faith that it will. Faith is in every aspect of every persons life. I have faith that I am, in fact, alive right now and not just dreaming this entire world. You have faith that I am an actual person and not just some figment of your imagination. Calm down, try to calm down really. Think about it. Faith is unquestionable belief in something, something so unwavering that no proof could ever sway it. Faith is the ultimatum of believing. Science is not about this. Science is not about determining results beforehand and sticking with them regardless of the testing(unless you're in the Soviet Union): in fact, from what you wrote, I don't think you even know what the scientifical process is. The process goes from hypothesis to analysis of the results, and at any point during that process the outcome and the analysis can change radically. This has nothing to do with faith - faith is not open-minded. I don't need to have 'faith' in that the gravity won't crush me to death tomorrow. I know it won't. This is because I know certain laws of physics apply here, and will not be changed randomly because a divine being somewhere up there decides so. Faith is a religious thing, spawned from organized religion. It's extreme. In fact, one of faith's explanations is: " Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. "There you have it - faith is inapplicable in science. My knowledge that the gravity will not crush me rests on a firm knowledge of the laws of physics, not superstition. You don't even realize what science is, do you? Hey, here's a quick test. Do you believe in gravity? Do you believe in evolution, then? Evolution has more proof backing it up than gravity does. And this is actual evidence, recorded over centuries. DNA. Fossiles. Concrete data. You might also misunderstand what "a theory" means in science. In science, any complex model is called "a theory". The theory that life evolved from earlier life is as well supported as the "theories" that the continents drift, that germs cause disease and that stuff is made of atoms. You can bet your life on all of those "theories". Not only that, but there are nearly 12,000 Christian CLERGY who've signed a statement supporting evolution and rejecting the teaching of creationism as science. Science isn't about voting, but even if it was, evolution still wins. Here is an example of how scientists used evolutionary theory to predict a particular undiscovered species should exist, when it should have existed, and where to dig NOW to find a fossil of it. They went to that spot, and dug up 5 examples. What has creationism predicted? (Yeah I realize I'm taking this to other levels. You don't have to answer to these, you can consider I'm ranting... but I would appreciate an answer in any case.) tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/searching4Tik.htmlAnd finally, evolution isn't trying to explain the creation of first life or the creation of the universe. The latter is called cosmology. Only be denying reality or lying can you refuse evolution. After this little side-track, I will return to the original question: is science faith-based like religion? No. Why? I take it that your thoughts on the matter are something along these lines(found from Answers in Genesis website about faith in science) This is completely wrong and shows a major lack of understanding for the scientific method. The scientific method makes one assumption, and one assumption only: the Universe obeys a set of rules. That’s it. There is one conclusion, and that is that if the Universe follows these rules, then those rules can be made out by observing the way Universe behaves. This follows easily enough; if it obeys the rules, then the rules must be revealed by that behavior. I think that should answer the question satisfyingly enough: science is definitely not faith-based.
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Jun 2, 2013 17:23:23 GMT -5
Post by Syreth on Jun 2, 2013 17:23:23 GMT -5
Two things Religion is just another tool to control the masses. How does it differ from any other 'theory', or belief, then? You are incorrect in your base assumption that a theory and a religion are even remotely similar. They are not. Your right, all those religions that come out preaching world peace and caring for one another are made to manipulate and destroy those who think differently. Exactly. I don't need to have 'faith' in that the gravity won't crush me to death tomorrow. I know it won't. As a human, you don't know s**t. The smartest minds that have ever existed don't know s**t.Science is constantly being proven wrong, We thought the world was flat, we thought we were the center of the universe. To imply that you KNOW anything in science is complete and utter crap. Edit: I don't quite know what happened with this quote.
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Jun 3, 2013 0:46:33 GMT -5
Post by Varangian on Jun 3, 2013 0:46:33 GMT -5
Your right, all those religions that come out preaching world peace and caring for one another are made to manipulate and destroy those who think differently. Exactly. The fascists won't come out with nazi flags and red armbands. They'll come out with smileyface T-shirts, flower pants and cute little baseball caps. Also, I'm not quite sure if you're joking or not with the rest of that post. EDIT- I also agree with you Darin, I am quite nihilistic about these things. I acknowledge that what I say is highly selfish, as well. But I really just have no sympathy for a human being who is slowly destroying himself and not realizing that. We're slowly going on with this self-demolishment program, and now it's taken on hyperspeed. Sadly being nihilistic and shocking is the only way to get these things across. Being truthful, no bulls**t, the matter taken to you straight out and in front of you. Truth always hurts and truth makes you mad, but you've got to face the truth about humanity... it's hopeless. EDIT 2- In response to Darin; I know religion has done some little good, though always with a catch like 'we'll incorporate you to our system and make you into a mindless follower', but I think it's VERY INSIGNIFICANT, and easily disregarded when compared to all the bad religion has accomplished. It's so insignificant that I don't even want to talk about it - because it's a huge waste of time. It won't lead anywhere, because we all know that religion has had a terrifying effect on mankind, and no schools or little charity or any of their cute little hats are going to save them from that accusation. This is the truth, with no bulls**t. Another truth is right in the mirror, if you have the guts to look for it - there is no God, religion is there to give people a better mind and make them into mindless followers. Religion is in my opinion for the weak-minded - who the hell needs a God to continue living and cope with life. You don't need to make up stories and tales to cope with life, do you? By the way, I'm here for the entertainment. That's why I want to live. And I think there's nothing like religion for a little entertainment. (Hey, here's a cool example: the Aztecs sacrificed 80 000 people to celebrate the opening of their new temple) Another example of amusing bulls**t is the founding of the United States; a group of slave owners who told us that every man was created equal.
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Jun 3, 2013 6:44:33 GMT -5
Post by Some Random DoF Guy on Jun 3, 2013 6:44:33 GMT -5
And to Varangian's last post: I am not only offended but I am very angry that you make such high handed accusations. If you study history you will also see all the good various religions have done, and you cant blame a religion itself for the acts of evil men who merely used it for there own gain. It pisses me off even more when I, as a Christian, am trying to be fair to all views, and give credit where credit is due, while you come here and just lambaste religion with no regard for anything but your own views and beliefs. You are giving a very bad image to non religious people by what you are saying. You are not even allowing for co-existences, you are basically saying religion is the greatest evil and should be done away with. Now, I could be wrong here but between the two of us, you and me, which of us is being dogmatic and closed minded? An accusation that is very liberally thrown at all religions. Everyone who knows me knows that i have a grudge towards religion (More specifically, Catholic and muslim). Now, i do agree that religion can do good. But in my opinion that's all due to you (the people) being good christians and muslims. I do need to say that i myself bear no love for these two religions whatsoever. I actually hate these two to my very core
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